Development Blog for Project Vega

Fuck fuck fuck fuck!
A soon as I read the title, a part of me died.
I was really looking forward to this game….
FUCK YOU PUBLISHERS!!!!!!!!

But don’t you dare delete the Magnus engine. Make it freeware.

Oh. Dear.

This isn’t good, because I actually was looking forward to a game that was not a “cut of the mill” so to speak. It’s rather disappointing that innovation, talent, and creativity cannot easily thrive in a world of corporate domination.

Every great disappointment of this being canceled… Go ahead and give skullrant power in ST forums there now that it’s down HAHA!

Bradley,

Listen, it takes years to build an empire, sure Vega may not look like something to day, but if you keep working at it one day it could be, as lame as this sounds: Rome was not built in a day, and neither can Vega. Sure you may not have the resources now or have the work power you would like, but part of being successful is learning to take what you do have and market it, and if people like what your marketing to them they’ll go “Hey, maybe I can help this project, it looks cool”.

Your only thinking about the short term goals, you haven’t even GIVEN a publisher a chance yet, who knows maybe one will go “Hey, there is some real potential here, let’s give this guy a chance.” do the very best you can, you never know what they may say until you try, you must try. To quote Gandhi: “You may never know what results come of your action, but if you do nothing there will be no result”

Do not just base your decision on what you have read, just because there is lots of companies that will only publish a near finished product does not mean that they are all like that, give it a shot, you put so much hard work into Vega to go back on it now, you owe it to yourself.

To quote Gandhi again: “Be the change you want to see in the world”, you want to change FPS? Then be part of that change.

I know you can do it Bradley, believe in yourself. Maybe you won’t get Vega done as soon as you want it to, but you will do it if you try.

I am known as Carn the god, I rape and rape until I can’t rape no more!

Welp. It was a good run.

Guys, don’t give up now, you guys should be encouraging Carnevil to continue. Nothing is impossible guys, sure there’s obstacles in the road, but we can all help in one way or another.

You are all forgetting the old saying “We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible.”, which if my memory severs me correctly was said by none other than Vince Lombardi.

Ah geez, this is beyond saddening news to me . And it seems to have come right out of the blue! It looked as though you were well on your way to finding a publisher. But I guess instead of being where the good stuff was supposed to start…it was the brick wall

I knew it was going to be difficult to find a publisher just because of the way the industry works these days, but I didn’t think it would be nigh impossible. I thought that with all of the buzz and hype people get over some indie game developers games these days that maybe there would be enough of a niche out there for new game developers to get into and find willing publishers. But I guess not. I guess the industry and the rest of the game playing world isn’t interested in anything but whatever the fat cat game dev companies shit out. To tell you the truth, at this moment, I’m seriously questioning whether or not I still want to get into game development as a career. Honestly, the last thing I wanted to do was go work for some souless massive game development company where most, if not all, of any creativity that you get to wield is suppressed by what the higher-ups want. I was looking at Vega as my opportunity to possibly escape that and work in a truly creative environment where people actually care what I have to say and genuinely listen to my ideas. Goddamn none of this shit actually works out

Well man, I’m really sorry that you worked your ass off only to have this happen. It was really great being able to talk and work with you and everyone else. The project was full of potential and talented people and if it weren’t for the extenuating circumstances, I think we could have done very well. And I have to apologize for not being around as much as I would have liked, especially the past few weeks. I was kinda looking forward to you finding a publisher so I could quit this job and work for you instead, heh . But that’s the way my luck seems to work. I hope you stick around in one form or another. And really, you have a great base and engine to work from, so maybe you can continue the engine portion as a hobby? It would be a shame for such great work to go to waste.

If you ever start up another project of some sort in the future, I’m always interested. And if you just want to talk or have a small conversation, I’m usually always reachable by email or PM

Well Carn, if that’s the only thing holding the project back, continue it the best you can until you find someone that can, remember nothing is impossible, you just have to think about it. Don’t give up, take a break, go out and search in the world for someone who does art and maybe say to them “Hey, I got this cool thing…”, who knows maybe something good will come of it.

Personally, I think you should just take a break before you burn yourself out.

On that site, jtagge75 did say:

“Have you even tried posting a help wanted ad here for some modellers? Given the progress you have made you ought to be able to find some people to work for free or some future profits.”

Have you tried that? There is a chance that someone will like it, hell the people on here now like it and want to help you, maybe someone outside our community will?

Oh one other thing, I saw you made a post about self publishing:

Yes, DO IT! If you can publish it yourself that’s great. You could make a way for people to buy it right off your site and download it, it can work.

You may not know this about me, but I too am a programmer. I have made money off the stuff I programmed BECAUSE I self published, it works. If people like your work, they will be willing to buy it over the internet, as someone who has done this before: It works.

I don’t think you wasted your time, even if the project was doomed from the get-go. That seems to be a pretty pessimistic view on it, though I can’t blame ya. You can never see these things coming from the beginning I honestly think that, if anything, you should take this as a learning experience. Your are an extremely talented person, don’t let this turn of events get you down.

I just skimmed through that thread and there seems to be some really good advice in there. If your still interested at all in the game design industry, the very least you could do is use the demo as a piece for a portfolio while in search for a new job as suggested (so hey, no pizza delivery!). I know you aren’t very trusting of getting more people on board that you haven’t met before considering how bleak the prospect of having to re-recruit artists every few months would be because of contributor drop-out. Honestly, I wouldn’t really care to do that myself either. If it weren’t for circumstances at home, I could make myself way more available to help you out. But yea, that’s the problem; no publisher -> no money to keep people around -> no work gets done . And I’m sorry to say, I can’t really think of a better way to get more people recruited and to keep them on the team through the development cycle. But if you are able to get something together and keep people on the team without funding, then I think self-publishing would definitely be an option at this point.

Yipes…well I gotta run. I’ll come back and comment more when I can.

RIP project Vega

Oops, I should have clarified my post a bit more, that was me bad

I mean, in the end if you ever get it to the point of publishing, self publish. But in the mean time you should try posting a help wanted ad on that site, it wouldn’t hurt to try. Be optimistic about it all.

@Skulltag.net/MP2E and the like (Because I know you are reading this): No, he shouldn’t GPL it, he should do what he wants to do with it, stop thinking about yourselves and start being more supportive to Carnevil’s cause AND do something about it instead of complaining about the source. You have no clue how hard it is to do this kind of thing. Be a little more optimistic and supportive, it’s hard work he’s doing.

Carn. You even told me that THIS was your life. What’s the point in cancelling it just because of what a few people said? You’re simply giving up because of the chance of getting volunteers to do the graphics/models/sounds/music ? Come on! Just because you didn’t get a publisher deal DOESN’T mean you have to cancel it!

For as long as I’ve known you, you haven’t let a bunch of naysayers force you into cancelling something you’ve wanted to do this badly. You even have the coding done and squared away, why should you have spent your time on this, just to throw it away because you have to wait? That’s the gaming industry for you, THE CODING IS ALWAYS THE FIRST THING TO BE DONE. Personally, I think that having to coding done and waiting is bothering you, because you haven’t had such first hand experience with the game industry and how it functions before.

So, this is my suggestion. Don’t be so quick to give up, and relax while you can. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither are any games.

So? Have you tried? Don’t give up because someone says so. If people here like Vega without playing it and only seeing a Demo video, then what are the chances that other people will too?

I once thought about game programming myself, I found out how many people would like playing a Castle Vania style game (Really great concept I had), when I gathered statistics (Yeah yeah yeah, stats prove nothing I know) based on a survey I had given out, I had 4000 of them returned to me with the result saying that yeah they would buy something even if it wasn’t the best graphics ever or if it wasn’t a big name. You say you can release Vega for 10$ or so? 4000 * 10 = $40,000, that’s a pretty damn good start.

Spend a little money on a Molder, or do what everyone on that Forum suggested to you: Ask for help. I know you hate trusting people, but that’s the reason WHY companies exist: They are a group of people that have to trust each other. Stranger things have happened Carnevil, and you will never no until you try.

@Catman: I’m glad I’m not the only one who uses that Rome saying.

I saw a post about this game on Gamedev.net, so it’s quite odd to see a cancellation post with the exact same date… ah well, join the club. I’ve seen this happening a lot in the HL modding scene, I’ve worked on some mods that failed too. It felt bad back then, but in hindsight it’s been a very educative time. Helped me a lot in becoming a game programmer.

Basically, it’s pretty hard to find reliable, skilled people who want to work on your project for free. And you can’t blame them for that. One of the reasons why you need funding. If you really want to see a project come to life, you may have to fund it yourself. Braid was done by one programmer, and at some point he hired an artist to take care of the visuals.

Another option would be to play on your strong points (which, for a programmer, would not be a content-heavy project like this). A game like AudioSurf doesn’t require a lot of modeling and texture-work, but it’s pretty programming intensive. A game like Tron 2.0 still does require some texture work and modeling, but it’s a less expensive style than most other shooters. What I’m trying to say is this: art is your weak point, so be smart about it. Don’t try to build games that heavily rely on art unless you’re able to hire some artists.

As for funding, look at it from the other side: you’ve got money and some random guy is asking you to fund his game project. All good and well, he’s putting in a lot of work, but is that investment going to pay back? Is there a market for his game? Can he be relied on, or will he bail out at some point? And will the art really be that crappy (you’ll be surprised at how many people only look at the visuals – we programmers tend to ignore placeholder art; oh, that’ll be replaced later)? Try to understand the process, so you can make informed decisions early on, rather than jumping into yet another project that’s doomed to remain unfunded. Planning is important – and sadly very hard to do without prior experience.

Either way, I’m sure you’ll have learned a lot of things that will be helpful in the future. Keep it up!

Listen here Carn.
You can’t do this. Maybe the twelve year old noobs who play Halo 3 all day may not like the game, but the 30 year old veterans will.

You spent two years on this project. I don’t want to see this go to waste. You worked hard for this and by golly you have to finish it. This game could make a difference.. so don’t give up! Finding people to work on the game may be hard, but that doesn’t mean you have to quit.
I made a facebook page for this game. I started a forum topic on IGN just for this game. There is no way this game is going to waste.
Remember my first post? It sucks. The engine shouldn’t be freeware. You finish this game. For all the FPS fans who stuck with you, Skulltag and Doom and other games for all these years.

Finish this fucking awesome game. Don’t do it for us, but for yourself. Don’t give up.

NOOOOO! u can stop this, that makes no sense at all! u start up some master piece then everyone wants to play and see and u stop? thats not right, u are a truly awesome person with awesome skill, this skill can make this game… the best thing ever! listen to the cries of the people!! DONT STOP VEGA!!!!!!

hmm why not just continue just privately? I mean leaving what you created is just what happened to skulltag. keep goin.. someones bound to see it sooner or later.

@Boko: That would defeat purpose of this getting published, Boko.

All I can say is, CONTINUE. If you are not continuing, make something better. But pleasure, continue either way, You just, can’t stop now.

Carn, a public beta for your game hasn’t even been released yet and you already have a community beginning to follow it. It is going to be hard to move forward from this point, but it doesn’t seem like Last Bastion has to suffer this fate. You’re really onto something with it and some of those people at gamedev.net are so used to the modern FPS market that they’re not used to the idea of an FPS focusing on gameplay and speed over realism. Canceling this in frustration at this point is the absolute worst thing that could happen. I’m sure that if this is continued and Last Bastion reaches a state closer to completion, publishers will definitely begin to show more interest.

Well, I know your life is busy, but I’d hate to see you throw all of this work away. You spent over a year making this game, and you have motivated developers behind you. Not only that, you also have a community. If you still cannot finish this, then I think the best thing to do in order to not disappoint all the followers would be to pass on the game rights to one of the developers who was working on Vega.

Ahi quedo tu wea de project VERGA!

I’m going forum to forum to forum to look for some people for you Carn.

I personally think it would be a waste to cancel the project. If it takes 3, or 4 years, so be it, if you need time to make it better, than that is what needs to be done. It’s only been 2 years, and for most people starting out, it takes far longer than that to get a project in an even semi-playable state.

Don’t let yourself give in.

This is the facebook page I made.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Last-Bastion/268332285895?ref=search&sid=1415126527.3006000966..1
Join if you want Vega to continue!

Right, I knew you had already worked in the industry before. I guess what I was getting at was that at the very very least, you can use this as part of your portfolio/resume/etc. Not so much that you were doing this to be able to break into the industry that you’ve already broken into. I mean, of course, that’s if you plan on doing anything like that (I certainly wouldn’t want to deliver pizza for a living, but that’s just me). I may not be an expert to anything relating to game design or the industry, but I do know that you are passionate about game design and your very skilled. Try not to let that go to waste!

As far as this project and whether or not it will be viable to make a profit goes, I can’t say for certain from my limited knowledge if it could still work out or not. I’m just too ignorant of how certain aspects of the business work. Ideally it would be nice to see the project turn into more of a Skulltag-type thing where you work on it in your spare time and it’s free to the public. But that is not fair to you in the least, and I kinda doubt you want to go down the road again. Another idea would be to scale down the scope of the project considerably. Keep the core elements of gameplay but simplify and reduce the time it would take to create resources. I’m thinking keep it very Doom/Quake like; Doom-res textures, very simple models or even sprites, and a simplistic map format similar to Quake. If, somehow, the resources were easier and quicker to make (I used making it Quake/Doom-like as a possible example), that could potentially quell the problem contributors who don’t have the free time to stick around for a long haul. Or not…but it’s just an idea. If you were able to make a more finished game from that point, I think self-publishing wouldn’t be an issue. Pieter Witvoet seems to have some excellent advice as well, so I would certainly give his points some thoughts.

Anyways, I just hate to see that after all that work you poured into this thing, it ended up like this . But like I said, use it as a learning experience and don’t let it get you down

Brad.

There have been times when I look at things I work on, including all the negative criticisms and naysaying by others and consider dropping it then and there. But then, I think of how finishing it will help myself.

You’re simply taking the word of a few people on gamedev.net and quite frankly, they are hardly a voice of reason for your decision. You know WHY some may be so quick to insist on your cancellation of the project? Jealousy. They simply can’t handle the fact that someone out there wants to pitch an idea, therefore they try to talk you out of it.

You took their word on how “impossible” it would be to get a pitch presented for Last bastion, but did you try? Have you considered the possibility of what would happen if someone actually said “Yes.”? You seem so quick to throw away all the work you’ve done in the last 2 years, and that in itself makes me disappointed in you.

Think of all the people that want to see this “bridge” of yours completed. You have almost 20 people on this page alone, and numerous others; Hell, even the two “interesting” people at Quakecon wanted to see this through!

However, if you want to ignore all the people who have your back, then at least do it for yourself. Prove to yourself that you can pull off something of this magnitude, just to show that you can.

The first step is always the hardest to take, but after that, the rest of the stairs are easy. So what if you stumble once or twice, you just get back up and keep climbing.

I hope we see you at the top.

I’m confused of where you’ve even looked for help with this project. The only places I’ve even seen it advertised is in the Classic Doom community. You don’t even have any ModDB profile for it. :s

Oh well.

At least you’ll have more time to work on Skulltag now.

Well. I just watched the gameplay video on YouTube and I was impressed. I was like, just how could you throw this away, Carnevil? It’s a playable game from what I’ve seen, even with ripped textures and no sounds or animations.

I get your point. You are only a programmer, and all you could do in the game, was already done. Now you have nothing more to do but find people to make sounds and graphics. And because of this you’re cancelling the project? I would suggest just putting it on hold for a bit until some good volunteers are found (and as said by other people, sometimes you’ll have to use some money out of your pocket). I am sure it would be worth the effort in the end. This game has a lot of potential. I also have no doubt that publishers would give it a chance once it’s near completion – that is, when you find people to do the art part. It isn’t that hard, trust me. Ask everywhere you can, and someone will like it and volunteer.

@Catman: You know, I never realized it before you mentioned it, but your right those assholes over at Gamedev are jealous.

Carn, don’t believe those guy anyways, I’ve been to gamedev over the years, they’re a shitty, jealous, and unhelpful community *Remembers his past trying to get good advice with C++ back in 03*.

As I and the others keep telling you: At least try.

The “I’m just a programmer!” excuse isn’t a very good one. I taught myself to compose music and draw/color just so I’d be able to at least do some of my own resources on my own games/projects. If you really want to finish this project bad enough, you’ll expand your boundries. If you really wanted to, you’d find a way to make it work. But I guess you’ve already decided not to.

I agree.

Don’t listen to them at gamedev Brad. Wouldn’t it just suck if some other guy at gamedev announced a game similar to Project Vega and then released it? All because he wanted you to cancel your game so he could make one.
They are just jealous. I am really dissapointed by the fact your quitting a game just because it takes something called time to find people to help with the game.
Put Vega on hold until you can find more people to help. It takes years for this stuff to happen.
ID Software is still looking for people to help with Doom 4. You should be looking for people too.
And I really liked Skulltag too. LIKED.

A Carnevil cry for attention? I’ve never seen one of these before.

“Unfortunately, getting outside help has proven time and time again that it simply will not work. People simply have other priorities (work, school, social lives, etc.) and cannot devote the time necessary to a project of this magnitude. Either I’m the worst manager in the world, or this model is simply doomed to failure. Maybe both.”

The bustling indie game scene has shown that this model is not a failure. And you are not even the first developer to be lamenting about the lack of artists, the authors of the indie RTS A.I. War literally used graphics leftover from Tyrian (they were released under a suitable license) until their game got enough hype to be able to hire an artist. Dwarf Fortress literally uses ASCII for his graphics and he makes around 30k a year in *donations*.

I don’t think you’re necessarily a bad manager either. You’ve just been working on an engine (not a game, an engine) for the last year with a specific end goal X in mind and when you feel like you can’t achieve it you are sad that all of your work is supposedly going to go to waste. It doesn’t have to. Who says that you have to make your dream game design the first go-round. Why not set your sights lower and try and come up with a less ambitious game (or more, but in a way that’s not particularly art-heavy) that uses the Vega engine that also caters to your strengths and glosses over your weaknesses. If you’re not artist enough to create something that looks like Quake 4 or even Quake 2, try a simplistic or retro look. At least give it a shot…think about it this way, you couldn’t do worse than leileilol.

Failing that, you could at the very least release your engine’s source under a permissive license (BSD/GPL/etc.) and see if anyone else finds your engine useful. You never know…

Good luck with your future endeavors, whatever they happen to be.

Carnevil, how in the world can you throw something away like that just because the “game industry” doesn’t want to see anything unfinished? That’s atrocious. Sorry, but… no.

I like what I’ve seen so far. I love old school Doom and Quake, and I’m almost 18 years old. Nothing, not even Fallout 3 or any other modern FPS-game out there is as good as Doom. Here’s a young guy who was supposed to “grow up with Halo” telling you to NOT give up on us who are interested in what you have worked on, so far. But if you cannot afford any future progress, than I am truly saddened for that to happen

So I have an idea, which probably would be a stupid one, because I’m young and optimistic. And perhaps a few people have told you this already…

Pass the ball over to the Doom community.

Let the fans of Doom and the supporters of your work continue your project Vega. Come on, give it a shot! Almost every big Doom project has been released, with contributors adding up to like, at least 20 people per project! And damn, do they ever look good! So please, Carnevil, don’t let this bad boy get killed! Let it live through other people who want it to live, as a token of their respect towards you because you’ve started such a great project!

@Carney: Pardon my french. But that is such a load of crap. Time and time again that has been proven to be wrong. Every major mod that has ever been released show that it’s wrong.

What? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!